Wednesday, September 16, 2009

The Controlling, Narcissist Leader/Pastor

Ungodly, controlling pastors have hurt many people. The phrase "ungodly pastors" seems to be an oxymoron. These two words shouldn't go together in the same sentence, but the sad truth is there are pastors and leaders who are only in the position for their own lustful desires.

These dictating leaders can be described by many words - controllers, manipulators, narcissists, psychopaths, cult leaders, false pastors, and dictators, to name a few. There are varying degrees of this type of leadership and some are more damaging than others, but I have seen the negative effects these type of leaders can have on people. Some pastors are just strong leaders, while others are narcissitic psychopaths. If you haven't ever been around a person like this it may be hard for you to imagine that there are people who go to these extreme measures. But for those who have suffered under this type of heartless leadership, you know all too well how deep the wounds go.

Here are some signs and characteristics of a narcissist, unscriptural leader.....

*Resembles the same attitude Diotrephes had in III John verse 9. He is proud, carnal, demanding, overbearing, impatient, uncompassionate, "loving" only toward those who submit to him, but mean-spirited toward those who do not agree with him.

*He develops doctrines from pet verses that appear to support his view.

*He makes people feel that they cannot make important decisions and know God's will without him.

*He exalts himself before the people.

*He ridicules his associates, making them look small in the eyes of the church members, thus increasing his own prestige and authority and decreasing theirs.

*He treats men who leave as fools and evil men. All kindness and friendship is withdrawn by the leaders. People are only treated kindly when they submit to his doctrines and "authority."

*He contradicts himself a lot.

*He is accountable to no one.

*He provokes and intimidates people to get what he wants.

*He demands respect instead of trying to earn respect.

*He wears a phony grin and acts like everything is all right even when things are falling apart in his church.

*He acts as if he knows everything, but he really doesn't know how to handle problems he has caused.

*He is a captive storyteller and exaggerates the truth all the time. He is able to spin a web that intrigues others and pulls them into his life.

*He has the capacity to destroy his critics verbally and disarm them emotionally.

*He does not recognize the individuality or rights of others.

*He is extremely self-serving and thinks he deserves royal treatment.

*He has no checks on his behavior - anything goes.

*He has tremendous feelings of entitlement. He believes everything is owed to him as a right.

*He presents himself as a genius.

*He has an insatiable need for adoration. When others aren't praising him, he will praise himself.

*He gives the perception that he lives a grandiose life, but paranoia rules him. He creates an us vs. them mentality because of his perceived hostile environment.

*He lies coolly and easily, even when it is obvious he is being untruthful. It is almost impossible for him to be consistently truthful about either a major or minor issue.

*He is a plagiarist and a thief. He seldom gives credit to the true originators of ideas.

*He is extremely convincing and could more than likely pass a lie detector test.

*He does not have friends.

*He doesn't not have feelings of remorse, shame, or guilt. He feels justified in all his actions because he considers himself the ultimate moral arbiter. Nothing gets in his way.

*He is unmoved by things that would unset the normal person, while outraged by insignificant matters.

*He is cold, with shallow emotions, living in a dark world of his own.

*He can witness or order acts of utter brutality without experiencing a shred of emotion.

*He casts himself in a role of total control, which he plays to the hilt.

*He is tragically flawed in being able to either give or receive love.

*He despises community and emotional intimacy, and so he is profoundly lonely. On the one hand, though, there is something about his loneliness that he likes; for he can attribute it to his unique and superior nature.

*He constantly tests the beliefs of his followers, often with bizarre behaviors.

*He readily takes advantage of others, expressing utter contempt for anyone else's feelings. Someone in distress is not important to him. Although intelligent, perceptive, and quite good at sizing people up, he makes no real connections with others. He uses his "people skills" to exploit, abuse, and wield power.

*He will favor and offer help to people who are down as long as he thinks they will be useful to him later on down the road. Such favors might include offering employment, loaning money, or offering personal counseling. He may call in his favor if he sees you slipping away. Also, such opportunities help the narcissist persuade himself that he is good, despite the gnawing awareness of the dark cellar at heart.

*He has an inflated sense of superiority which propels him to recklessness; for he is subject to fantasies of omnipotence and unequalled brilliance, and he feels that he is above the law. And it is this sense of superiority that allows him to underestimate the intelligence and determination of his adversaries.

*He is indifferent to injustice and it's victims, but he rages against the person who is a threat to his charade and/or who refuses to cooperate with his underhanded schemes.

(I have taken a few of these statements from an article I have been reading, entitled Narcissism and the Dynamics of Evil. I decided just to add the link instead of continuing to add to my post. It's a very informative article.)


charley said...

It sounds like you have been following my former Pastor/Apostle/Prophet around for a couple of years while taking notes. I generally refer to the man as my former Narcissist or more simply, the Sweaty Screaming Baboon (SSB for short).

A few other of this guy's machinations included nepotism and the tactical use of the ability to become "offended". I always thought that for a big, tuff-guy, man-of-god, spitirtual warrior, apostle that he claims to be...this dude sure gets "offended" alot.

Speaking of being above the law, this "Apostle" actually commited so many traffic violations that he lost his driver's license in the state of Pennsylvania and had to go to driver's school and re-take all the original tests that we did as teenagers in order to get it back.

He also lost a primo job and a Victorian house (details from his sermons are sketchy) before becoming a "Pastor" declaring himself an "Apostle" and making a living out of convincing other people to give him their money through guilt, manipulation, and the perversion of Scripture.

I could go on with these kinds of examples but suffice to say that Christian International "Apostle Brian" is about as much of an apostle as he is a Cy Young award-winning major league baseball player. That would be NOT AT ALL!

Now that somehow I have escaped from this monstrosity, I find myself marveling at the level of contempt, repulsion and revulsion that I feel for him and his personality disorder. It's like nothing I have ever felt for anyone else anywhere at anytime in my life (including the Navy) and it happened of all places in "the church".

I'm guessing it's just a standard by-product of the residue leftover from 2.5 years of foolishly committing myself and my money to a control freak/manipulation monster.

BTW, he definitely thinks he's a genius.

Lita Wright said...

This is an excellent post! It describes my former pastor/manipulator perfectly.

Set Free said...

I know exactly what you mean!

My former pastor failed at several jobs before becoming a pastor. I have come to the conclusion that he figured out manipulating trusting people would be easy money. He has lived the high life for years while others struggled. He preached that his faith got him all he had, but it really came because of his countless pleas for people to tithe and give to their "man of God."

I don't know of another man who is disliked as much as this man. He has hurt so many people you couldn't even count them. Every person I run into has a story about something he did. And yet when people start standing up to him he calls it an attack of the devil. He says all of these people are evil and snakes and wolves. In his eyes he will never be wrong. He will never see that he is the common denominator in every situation.

My former pastor thinks he is a genius too. He is the only one who is right - and he will let you know you are an "idiot" if you try to tell him different. (Idiot is his favorite word.) He learns big words and uses them to look big. He tells everyone they should go get a college degree, but he doesn't have one himself.

We got preached to over and over about not getting offended and walking in love. AND yet it didn't apply to him. He would treat someone ugly and then talk about how we all had to walk in love. I was always scratching my head over that one. He just wanted us to overlook what him and some of his family members were doing.

I could go on and on!
Thanks for the comment!

Set Free said...

Thanks for the comment, Searching. It's great to hear from you!

Aida said...

Unfortunately, now that we've entered the world of online groups, these types of individuals have also shown up on some online groups. If there’s no one actively watching, they’ll sneak in and take over . . . abusing, name calling and manipulating until they drive the serious believers away. In the end, all that’s left of the group is them and their followers.

As I read your list, the characteristics are surprisingly similar. I bring this up to warn people that abusers aren’t just in churches. They’ll go wherever they can find a group that is open to manipulation and control.

Thanks for sharing this list and for your blog. People need to be warned and I’m thankful for blogs like yours that are speaking truth to those who are still bound.

Set Free said...

Thanks for pointing out that we need to be aware of this type of abuse in many different situations.

I want to continue to post things that may help those who are still bound see the truth. I only wish I had read things like this years ago.

Thanks for the comment!

Barbara said...

Thanks for continuing to share information like this. It helps to know that what I was thinking all along is really the truth.

Anonymous said...

I just read the article you have a link to here and it was incredible. I encourage anyone who thinks they may be under a pastor like this to read this article and hopefully see the truth. This person described here is my former pastor! I know there are many men out there like this fooling people, but when I read this information it is so close to what I was under it's very sobering. No one human being deserves to be under the control of a man like this and the people still left in my former church need to see this man for who he is and get out! If you know anyone still left at WOL and may be questioning, encourage them to read this article and try to see the truth. This man is causing damamge to individuals and some don't even realize it. I found that the article seens hard to get into, but goes into great detail towards the end so keep reading. Thanks for sharing this. It is an eye opener.

Justin said...

This blog post is nearing a year old, so I apologize for bringing it back to life, ha.

I appreciate the post, and I am sitting under a man like this. What did you guys do to handle men like this? Did you just leave the church, or did you try to fight it?

I believe there are times when men like this are a judgement on the people. This is the second man our leadership has chosen that acts like this. I believe it is a mix up in the fundamental values of the leadership, but that still does not nullify my love for the people here.

How are we to handle these harmful, uncompassionate, unloving "pastors"?(I hate to even call them that, as they do no actual pastoring)

Set Free said...

There is nothing you can do when dealing with men like this. They NEVER think they are wrong and the only way to handle this type of situation is to leave. Trying to fight it will only hurt you and your family. These type of men will say and do almost anything, so I would just go quietly and move on to a place where the real love of God is practiced.

I know it's hard to leave the people you have grown to love in the church. I had friends at my former church who I had known for many years. But I can tell you to expect some of them to shun you when you leave. Some people will be loyal followers these "pastors" no matter what because he has them fooled/brainwashed.

The pastor I was under was extremely unloving and uncompasstionate. I don't know why I didn't realize sooner that the Bible says if a man doesn't love people, then he doesn't love/know God. Love is the sign of a true man of God. Serving others is a sign of a true man of God. When pastors are only looking for people to serve them, then are they really a true man of God? The Bible answers that question very clearly. We cannot judge a man's spiritual condition - only God know's that, but the Bible does tell us to look at the fruit. If there is no good fruit - love, compassion, service, etc., being modeled, then my opinion is to run as fast as you can away from a place like that and find the real thing.

Thanks for commenting. I hope that helps and if you ever have any other questions please feel free to ask.

Aida said...

Justin, I agree with Set Free. There really is no way to fight leadership. They’ve got everything on their side. Also, it makes me wonder why the leadership picks men like that. Obviously, there’s something wrong there. Only you can know when it’s time to leave, however, if the only reason you’re staying is because of the people, then I believe that’s doing them a disservice. Your being there, even though you don’t agree, will validate that pastor’s behavior in their eyes but, if you try to fight, you’ll only get hurt ant hurt them as well.

In a battle with leadership, I believe the deck is stacked against you and you’ll always end up the loser.

Terry Stanley said...

All men are fallable. When one man is given this kind of power it ruins him.
Biblical Pastors

Unknown said...

I was doing some research on crime in the Puyallup area when I cam across your articles. After reading your articles I thought I might suggest a short eBook I wrote. It was motivated by the element you describe as “The need for control” in religious leaders. Or in any leader for that matter. Of course we all know that true leaders need NO control, for their influence is communicated by their life. Others might be compelled to follow a GOOD leader. However there are those who seek to control their families, their employees and any other circle they are a part of. If you are interested, the short eBook I mentioned is on They have apps for Kindle to view eBooks on any device, i.e. Kindle, iPhone, computers, etc. Abdicating The Throne speaks about relinquishing the position of sovereign controller for the sake of growth and development of others..

Abdicating The Throne

The last thing a pastor would ever want to admit; was how he acted as supreme ruler over his immediate local kingdom, he might frequently refer to as, “My Church”. It may stem from upbringing or just the way he manages his own household. The kind of leader I am talking about, reads 1 Timothy 3:5 and sees himself as commander in chief of the home; and takes on the approach of a military officer commanding the troops. Sitting at the helm he has the final say in all matters. His words might come across like, “Wife and kids, you don’t have to think; just ask me and I will tell you.” However these approaches rarely produce any kind of respect, but rather fear. At the very least, it produces a family who will not think for themselves. They will become overly dependent on others to make their decisions for them. This dominating leader likes it when his followers become totally reliant.

Anonymous said...

Please pray for me and my family. We started going to this church last year and were amazed at how the church was like "family". Every couple of weeks we were invited over to someone's house for a meal or coffee. The pastor went away for a couple of weeks and then came back and after the assistant pastor spoke he got up in front of the church and said "what was that?". Then he began to tell everyone very loudly that he very upset with the church and that God would not give him a sermon until the appropriate time. He went on about his "ministry" that he wanted to start and said "if you don't like it, there's the door". He told us he already picked those who can help with his ministry and it would only be 3% of the church. He tells us that you should never get up to go to the washroom during his sermon and if you do you are giving in to the spirits that are squeezing your bladder. Did I mention he often speaks for 2 hours! He wants to take the sign off the church and not be Baptist anymore and the people all say "God made the leaders head over the church and we are to obey them".

Last month the pastor spoke and said that for the last 9 months we have not had communion because when they had it last he looked around and saw people's faces and decided that the church people were not being genuine. My husband and I have been asking for months when they will do communion again and the church leaders kept telling us that they wanted to wait to find out how they could make it more meaningful. My husband is being totally blinded and says "they must have their reason". My husband loves it there because he now has friends and the men really stick together. I like my friends too, but I am really scared of not obeying God. I am praying that my husband will see that this control is not healthy and that God will give us Christian friends again when we go to another church. We have a 5yr old and a 3yr old and we need prayer of where to go.

Anonymous said...

Great post. Just as others have said, it sounds like a church that I used to go to. The narcissist traits are not only in the pastors but also in the member/parishioners of the church. People in churches often try to push their friends into going to and joining the church just to be pressured into making sacrifices for the church-nonstop. The word God was always used when they would use tactics to manipulate you.

The church that I used to go seemed to only care about you when they wanted something from you, and as soon as they get it-the appreciation is only temporary. Heaven forbid if you dare ask anyone for anything because you shouldn't be needy, only giving; or if you make a living and don't tithe what is expected every week. Apparently, to some churches, wage earners aren't entitled to keeping much of their earnings for anything materialistic.

Since when are pastors entitled to larger stipends for their service? Shouldn't they be setting an example by living by a simple means and not more? I realize that not all are like that, but their are some who are very greedy and have expensive homes and cars, while members of their church are barely getting by.

Another thing that I have noticed about church groups is they will often make excuses for other people's behavior and you are supposed to just forgive and all will be well. To me that is the biggest load of crap because there is no accountability for actions.

I also have realized that over time even after spending a significant amount of time with peers (the youth group, bible study, or other outings) that most of the relationships formed in those groups were superficial.

There are so many things that can be pointed out and could go on. I hope that I am not long-winded.

Anonymous said...

This is our current pastor. Unfortunately for us, my husband is on staff here and we can't just up and leave until he finds himself a new job. Our pastor is trying to control what my husband does outside of his job, in his personal time. The last two years, my husband has gotten approval from the Pastor and elders, but not without considerable resistance. This year as my husband has submitted his request to continue his "extracurricular" activities, it has blown up and my husband is now being assaulted by the pastor and accused of not performing his job adequately as a direct result of his "extracurricular" activities. He is now manipulating others and rallying support for his lies. It has become quite clear to us over the last year or two that our pastor has some issues. Now we know there is nothing we can do to change it. Just get out as quickly as possible.

Anonymous said...

This is SPOT ON! My former church had a pastor for about 9 months who exhibited EVERY single behavior you have listed. Strangely enough, about 2/3 of the church couldn't see him or his behavior for who he really was. Ultimately he was fired. The church board then brought in a new guy who was identical to the above, except he did everything with a smile, so people assume "he's a nice guy".

I'm sharing this article with anyone who will listen. I'm hoping it will open some eyes, hearts, and minds.

Anonymous said...

I am in a difficult situation,daughter is first lady,son in law pastor. he controls everything in the church. we sit an watch, we are hard working members,but not allowed to do anything. please help me before I move on

Heartbroken said...

I am not sure you are still here, but I was so glad to find that I am not just "asynine and crazy". I have wanted to find another church since the first Sunday we went to this church. My pastor has taught so much on the scripture "touch not my anointed and do my prophets no harm that I think everyone including myself is afraid to speak up. My husband is convinced we will be cursed if we leave this church. Yet, we give and give and they build bigger homes and drive finer cars, employ their family members and we struggle. I am a musician but I am not allowed to operate in the church because I don't agree with things. We are even taught to turn away from anyone who speaks against the church, avoid these church members in "Wal-Mart" and literally not associate with people. It is very hard because I am miserable and my husband will not leave.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for posting this! This describes our current pastor well.I knew there was something wrong from early on, but didn't want to believe that he could be this kind of person.If you support him, he is really nice to you but if you question him, he either acts hurt or strikes back at you. either directly or in a sneaky way . I have felt hurt by him and have watched him hurt drive out and divide people. I know that pastors are human, but for a supposed man of God, It's disgusting. Am thinking that leaving is probably my best option, but I keep thinking about all the people that he will still be hurting after I leave and I'm really close to some of the people there.Thanks for writing this and helping people to see this problem clearly. wish more people in my church either saw this clearly or knew what to do about it. -

Anonymous said...

Our Pastor Victor Kim of Remnant Presbyterian Church here in New York was recently removed as pastor. There is talk from the older people that he is a Sociopath. His site is really helpful. I found another one called that talks about his exploits. It's really scarey. Are sociopaths violent? My older cousin who was in the youth group, led by his daughter told me that Pastor Victor's daughter openly told her that she was beaten as an child. I passed Pastor Victor a few times but never really talked to him, but he has these intense eyes. ever since i heard this story from my cousin, I am frighten by him and don't want to go near him. Not that all this came out, that he had an affair and apparently stole money, I do remember feeling creep out around him.
Do they have a propensity for violence? Are Sociopath genetic? The site tells of how oddly the family behaves weird. I know we didn't know, but does the family know? Do they see the real side of him?

Anonymous said...

I am Senior at NYU and have been attending Remnant Presbyterian Church. Our pastor Victor Kim may be a Sociopath. RSD people have been talking about the weird looks they get from him. Some of the girls talk about this look with a spooky grin that he gives. The good thing is that he is gone. Pastor Victor Kim was caught in a 10 year affair. I have been obsessed to find out if he is a Sociopath. The topic of sociopath is very intriguing. Pastors must have love, but sociopaths are incapable of love. Shouldn't people notice fairly quickly? I didn't know victor kim, but would like to study his personality. This is such an interesting topic.

Anonymous said...

It is so amazing that each article describes the characteristics of my Pastor Victor Kim at Remnant Church. Without going into too much detail, Pastor victor tells us to buy his book "a biblical theology of prophetic worship" which he released in April, then we discover that he has been in a 10 year affair a month after. Churches need to be alert to spot sociopaths types like Victor Kim.

Anonymous said...

There is always good purpose for a pastor's abusive ways. Our pastor, Victor Kim, long time pastor of Remnant presbytertian church has long been known for his abusive tone. It turned out that Victor kim was having a 10 affair. He used his aggressive ways to coerce these adulterous relationships. Now that facts are coming out, he lived a double life, with many women and exploiting church finances. Sold church property to family members without the congregation knowing. You are probably thinking... why didn't anyone say anything or do anything and how can he be in ministry for 25 years and no one knows about it.... well it's because we asians don't like confrontation. You have predators like him who take advantage of soft, and non-confrontational asians. The tragedy compounds when asians don't speak out against this type of predator. Many believe that this pastor is actually a sociopath. Lying, manipulation, doing anything to hide who they are... totally sociopothy behavior. You can google his name to see how sinister this man is... and I use the term man very loosely.

Anonymous said...

This describes my recently former pastor. I never had a problem with him until I told him that I couldn't lead worship twice a week. I had already committed to once a week and have a lot on my plate. Plus, it would be taking away the other worship leaders weeks to lead worship and that would just cause problems. He said okay and that everything was fine between us. He then quit communicating with me and wouldn't answer my phone calls. He used to call me three times a day and then nothing. (I also used to create the overheads for the song sets). He ended up telling my sister that I had yelled and cussed at him and that she needs to not be so co-dependent on me and figure out how to live her life without me and my son (who was just diagnosed with a chronic disease. She asked him if he cared about us and what my son is going through. She asked him if he loved my son and he told her he was not sure if he really knew how to love because of his childhood. How in tarnation can a pastor love God and teach people to love God and each other if he can't love people? Because my sister defended me, he decided to give her the cold shoulder like he did me and had his wife call to tell her that they had made the decision to have us step down from leadership, but that we could come to services on a trial basis. She told my sister that if I wanted to come back I had to work out my issue with her husband. Ummm, I tried and he didn't respond and told his wife to tell me not to call. She also told us not to join any other church because they were going to need our talent down the road and not to hang out with our friends we had before we joined their church. At that point I had already decided to quit attending. My sister did too. He has never called to work things out even though we have tried to reach out to him. And he has now demonized us as I saw him do publically (form the pulpit) to other people who have left. Most church members won't talk to us, but some still are. The lesson I learned is not to say no to a sociopath. The six months I was there, I saw him oust anyone who questioned him or didn't do what he wanted. He talked bad and named other churches in town form the pulpit. He even thought he had the right to tell people not go out of town. He always referred to himself as "we" (meaning him and God) when he wanted people to obey him. He owns his own church, so has no check and balance whatsoever and only surrounds himself with yes men. From what I understand, his church grows and then splits over and over. He only has about 20 people now, but they are all good little submissive sheep. He complains that people don't tithe enough, and dared to criticized a lady who spent money on her "new pearly whites." She had no teeth and had to buy dentures! For the first three months I knew her, she had to gum down her food. He also criticized other church members for buying necessities like clothing, fire wood or fixing up their properties instead of giving him all the money. He constantly pit people against each other and didn't like church members talking to each other about things and never wanted to have a group meeting when there was issues and preferred to talk individually to each person. This caused a lot of tension. He created division in order to better control and manipulate people. One night, before I left, he told me that he isn't really a pastor to people unless they let him dictate and make decisions in their personal lives. That was a red flag. I am glad I said no or I might be living under that unhealthy leadership to this day. Now that I have been out for a few weeks. I feel peace in my relationship with the Lord.

Pastor'sFiance said...

Painfully for me you have described my pastor/fiancé. I have since moved to another church and currently contemplating our future. To me(I am from South Africa) engagement is just as much of a commitment as marriage and I do not wish to sin against God by doing what's convenient instead of what's right and trusting God with my life. I would appreciate advice from people who have been in similar situations. I dread being first lady to a church with a leader like him, I personally feel he is not fit for ministry, as much as i love and care for him. Of course I haven't uttered this to him. He is very manipulative, subtle controller, deciever, greedy with money, not accountable to anyone, beyond reproach and mostly not faithful to me. He has had multiple affairs and has once told me he strongly believes in polygamy, he says its our culture and biblical. I'm exhausted by him and we are not even married yet.

cld said...

We have a pastor in our town like this. The eye opening point for me was, "He will favor and offer help to people who are down as long as he thinks they will be useful to him later on down the road. " I had a hard time putting my finger on it because helping people seemed like a reasonable thing to do, but, we always knew that he had an ulterior motivation.

We are part of a different church but will be praying for this deception to be revealed in due time.

Thanks for the article.

cld said...

Anonymous, this breaks my heart to hear of such a sad experience. You got calls 3 times a day? Now that is manipulation, wow!

cld said...

Pastors Fiance, run, run, run. I just read your post to my husband and those were his words. God has clearly used this writing to warn you to leave. He is already unfaithful to you in so many ways. Unfaithfulness is biblical grounds for divorce, you have nothing to fear. My husband and I will be praying for you.

Set Free said...

Dear Pastor's fiancé, your answer is "RUN!" If he is unfaithful to you before marriage, it will not be any different after marriage. He is not a true pastor if he's doing all theses things. Those are not the attributes of a loving man/husband/pastor. Getting married to this man and starting a family will only cause more hurt to you and your future children. You wouldn't be wrong in God's eyes to leave him. You would be making a very smart move!

Anonymous said...

If a pastor has an IQ of 170 nobody will able to sense anything wrong with the pastor because the pastor will reason and over rationalize his way to prove he is right. Thank you for this article

Anonymous said...

what if you are a grown child with a family and one of the PK's? Favorite verse: Luke 14:26 if any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother and wife and children and brethren and yeah and his own life also he cannot be my disciple, ... you leave the church, ...verse they went out from us because they were not of us.I john 2: 19... multiple good families .. leaving jumped ship... prayers for God to vindicate him. and then glad for any calamity that they might hear happen to those who left. one man leaves after his wife was constantly targeted in messages as being the "one who wears the pant in the family" when the man finally has enough and goes to the pastor to quietly leave, ...your wife is not saved and you are leaving in sin. older couple wonderful christians, must have questioned him or something who knows but all the men of the church have to go and tell him he cannot come back... you are missing church because your old but you werent old when i saw you in town you just dont want to come to church... public rebuke is better than secret love... not that they are totally in their 80s or anything... estranges you from the family if you don't form an alliance with him.. openly derogatory against those little families that don't have it all together, poor, have trouble keeping a job, don't look as nice as some.. make mean comments towards them and from behind the pulpit.. hate them too his non-in-law family at the dinner table. if you don't join in the criticism you aren't welcome. in-laws are threats. favoritism growing up and also to the grands. one week you hear such and such isnt saved in fact he has a whole list of people that aren't saved and aren't servant-able and then the next week such and such is such's family woudnt be bound together by God if isnt wasnt for them.. the same man he said last week wasnt saved. favorite quote... everyone who has got out of the ship gets shipwrecked. will of God chapter and verse... totally believe in that but somehow its used as an anchor that my soul just doesnt have peace with... not in this case. my husband prefers to stay and is somewhat scornful about the messenger not the message. we both separate the message from the messenger but will my children be able to do that... constantly tired of coming away with one of us wounded, hurt, angry or absolutely confused. if i go i lose my family so i stay?

Anonymous said...

This sounds so much like our situation at church. Our senior pastor is near 80 years old and is very controlling. He has a generous salary considering he only delivers the word once a month and rarely attends outside events. Our assistant pastor is his son in law and salaried and if the pastor should leave, he is next in line. He holds church meetings and if there is any controversy concerning one of his practices, he ends the discussion. At the last meeting, he continually blasted all the members saying that they had backslidden, ridiculing the deacons/deaconesses while saying nice things about his daughter, who is the Minister of Music, who has a salary.Everyone else in the church works for free and no one questions this.I have been a member for 9 years and I'm thinking this is spiritual abuse and maybe it is time to look for a new church.

Mrs C said...

Hi Pastor's Fiance, I have just read your reply and not sure if it is too late and you are already married, if so please disregard the following. I do not know how engagement works in your culture, and you have to do what is permissible to your own conscience. But in my opinion there is a difference between engagement and marriage (sexual relationship, leaving your father and mother, being united to your spouse) even Joseph was ready to "divorce" Mary when he thought she was promiscuously pregnant to another man. If it was ok for Joseph, why not you, if your fiance has "had multiple affairs." Regarding Polygamy, not it is not Biblical. Just because it happened in the Bible, doesn't mean it is approved by God. Murder happens in the Bible too. In the list of attributes for Pastors Paul specifically rules out those in polygamous relationships (1 Tim 3:2, Titus 1:6 "wife" not "wives") as well as a lot of the other characteristics you have listed above. I would suggest to you that if you are having second thoughts about this man, that perhaps you consider if it is in fact God's spirit speaking to your heart. The Bible warns against marrying unbelievers, and from what you describe I do not see a man who puts Christ and his ways first in his life (1 Cor7:39, 2 Cor 6:14-15) If it is not within your conscience to walk away from this engagement, perhaps you might consider a hard road of remaining unmarried. (1 Cor 7:10-11) I realise this would be very hard and bring much sadness, like the loss of children, but I believe that no marriage would be less painful than a bad marriage. I personally feel if you have had no sexual union and have made no public vow with this man you are not married in a Biblical sense and would be free to marry a man who would love you, respect you and honour marriage and bring Glory to God together with you. But you must do what is right as God directs you. I will pray for you in these hard decisions, your Sister in Christ, Mrs C. Australia.

Anonymous said...

This actually describes our pastors daughters treatment of others within the youth group. I am a youth leader and have been attempting to bring this to the attention of others but its difficult to hold her accountable since she is the pastors daughter and spins a web of lies to cover her behaviors. Naturally since shes grown up the angle of the church no one in interested in seeing the truth, or they are busy pandering to the pastors family. I have prayed and sadly its come to a point of leaving the church, for the sake of my own teens sanity and spiritual health.

Sad thing is she manipulates the other girls so much that they cannot see God, they are busy walking on eggshells or trying to gain her approval. Breaks my heart.

Anonymous said...

You are on point. This is what I see every Sunday. The only assurance I have, is that God in His time will call stop him from wounding the congregation. I am so ready for God to move his hateful spirit somewhere else.

Anonymous said...

I am currently dealing with this issue. Our pastor and his wife are extremely disorganized and in deep personal debt. Their home has been let go so long that the ceiling fell in and they have bad electrical issues. Their home is extremely cluttered. They won't allow guests. The pastors wife said she had a dream that the Lord told her to buy a Cadillac so they went into debt and bought one. They over book events and never turn down an opportunity to show up at an event. The pastors wife gives lots of personal gifts to people. She will appoint small jobs to people but refuses to allow them to do the job unless she oversees every aspect. Then if the job isn't done correctly she places the blame on others. They look very put together infront of others in high authority. If anyone questions their authority they preach about bad attitudes. They are always late and wait till the last minute to do things. Then they expect others to jump in and pick up their slack. If anyone goes against this then they get a lecture on bad attitudes. This includes children. They say that God has revield things to them but others arent ready to recieve it yet.I know I'm venting but we have been involved with them since 1997. We love them. We have seen them be what seems to be genuine. But there are SO many red flags. They have lost many people and even been told to leave churches and organizations. My love for them has kept me with them. I don't want to be wrong. But I'm starting to get so frustrated. I think its time to part ways.

Unknown said...

dear author till date since my childhood sunday school and today i am 55+ married with kids, i have always respected & supported my pastor and taken him as God's authority in person; many times even had conflict with other church members and pastorate elders when they were taking him lightly.
Sadly recently a new pastor has taken over our church (10 months)and he immediately took me in the committee seeing my language skills and gentle conduct, willingness to give etc. but last few months events have forced me to look at him with critical eyes and i find most of the traits you mentioned exactly match him. He must have taken me inside the committee to perhaps support him but i behaved quite objectively when some wrong decisions were being taken and even disagreed with him- which he has taken seriously and now totally ignored me. I will be soon resigning from the committee also as it is just politics and not at all democratic- few people (3) only have a say and manipulate rest of the people to bend them to their views.
Thank you author for exposing these traits of such leaders who are really not good for the churches all over.